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“…and so to most , the middle dawn is little more than a undisputable and grandiose display of mystic power, which is to say nonsense, and few regard it as the numinous gateway that it really signifies. Like many things they cannot explain, the middle dawn is merely another excuse to declare good omens and portents, but unto you it should be known as the Hurling Disk, numbered seventeen…"
AG: Here we see that the Dragon Break is considered a 'numinous gateway' and 'the Hurling Disk, numbered seventeen...'. Also we have this as a descriptive of what the Hurling Disk is:
"…the Hurling Disk, it is conjectured, contains a strange mingling of magic from both the Solar and Lunar spheres. That singular rarity, coupled with the rarity of its presence within the world, has kept it from gaining a strong foothold in the schools of known sorcery. The Selectives claim a similar source of power in their depictions of the Right Reaching, but that has not deterred those magicians which still try to fathom the meaning of the middle dawn and what benefits they may derive from that understanding."
AG: Is it possible that the Dwemer would have known of this sorcery? I certainly think so.
“…Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call ‘Mnemoli’, that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime. The psijiics hold it in much reverence, and many of their folk make pilgrimages to Veloth when it appears because a mountain there catches fire at its passing. This mountain is reputed to be one of the last refuges of the Dwemer before they departed from this world…"
AG: This mountain is of course the great Red Mountain of Vvardenfell. Why is it that the Mountain catches fire at its passing? I do not know, but I believe it plays a part in why the Dwemer left this world.
“…according to the texts, Mnemoli is a wayward child of ANU, one of a pantheon of forgotten deities known as the ‘Star Orphans’… a tribe of gods and goddesses that apparently felt abandoned when the Sun Withdrew from the World-Making. Like many of her siblings, Mnemoli is both confused and delighted with the Aurbis, and explores its five quarters as best she can without the help and regulation of worship, which are not needed (by which I mean, always there) during breakings of the sideways wheel…"
AG: At the Passing of Mnemoli during a Dragon Break, is it possible that Kagrenac, with his Tools, made the decision to send his race to the plane of these 'Wayward Children of Anu' through the use of the Heart, in order to regroup and once again come back to Mundus during the next Dragon Break to enact revenge upon the Dunmer/Chimer? Could these Gods and Goddesses be the pantheon of dieties that the Dwemer rever or even decend from?
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Arg! I hate that Dragon Break stuff. So confusing. I think it's entirely possible, what you say, Kagrenac using the heart to alter the fate of the Dwemer and transport them to an alterante plane, but...The Dragon Broke again during Daggerfall. Where are the Dwemer? Still hanging out waiting? Oooh. THAT would make a sweet game that I never thought about. Invasion of Tamriel by the Daedra AND Dwemer. Wasn't Yagrum Bag-a-whutsits chilling with Deadra lords in Oblivion? Or...no..That makes no sense, because Dwemer hated Daedra. ARGH! I've confused myself now, see?
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AG: Here we see that the Dragon Break is considered a 'numinous gateway' and 'the Hurling Disk, numbered seventeen...'.
Do we? I am not convinced at all that the 'middle dawn' or the 'Hurling Disk' refer to a Dragon Break per se. How do you make the connection Alastor? What do you make, then, of the reference to it containing a "mingling of magic from both the Solar and Lunar spheres"?
Edit: I get it now, the Middle Dawn is the period of non-linear time following the Dragon Break
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AG: This mountain is of course the great Red Mountain of Vvardenfell.
Agreed. 
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Why is it that the Mountain catches fire at its passing? I do not know, but I believe it plays a part in why the Dwemer left this world.
I think that Red Mountain erupts (I assume that is what Vehk means by 'catches fire') because of magic that is imparted as Mnemoli brushes past (or over, I should probably say.)
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AG: At the Passing of Mnemoli during a Dragon Break, is it possible that Kagrenac, with his Tools, made the decision to send his race to the plane of these 'Wayward Children of Anu' through the use of the Heart, in order to regroup and once again come back to Mundus during the next Dragon Break to enact revenge upon the Dunmer/Chimer? Could these Gods and Goddesses be the pantheon of dieties that the Dwemer rever or even decend from?
The passing of Mnemoli seems to me to be more coincidental with a Dragon Break - that is to say that Mnemoli is an effective prisoner of the Wheel ("as above, so below") and takes advantage of an 'untime' event to do some exploration outside of 'her' usual defined orbit through the Aetherius.
Isn't it possible that the Dwemer powered up Anumidium as some histories suggest, and that this activation caused a warp or break of the Wheel?
On your last comment, I don't think that the Dwemer revered *any* gods except for the conceptual, or perhaps finished and activated, Anumidium. They did, however, have an understanding of the planes (planets) of creation, although their "eight known worlds" seem to be incompatible with the gift-limbs of the Mundus by the apparent inclusion of Lorkhan himself;
"A Dwemer said, 'We Dwemer are only aspirants to this that the Velothi have. They shall be our doom in this and the eight known worlds, NIRN, LHKAN, RKHET, THENDR, KYNRT, AKHAT, MHARA, and JHUNAL" (ref. Sermon 3)
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Edited by Nigedo (06/25/03 10:50 AM)
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"AG: Is it possible that the Dwemer would have known of this sorcery? I certainly think so"
Alastor, im certain that the Dwemer were THE great scholars of their day, and if anyone had held information on the Alessian Order after its demise i believe it would have been them.
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I am not convinced at all that the 'middle dawn' or the 'Hurling Disk' refer to a Dragon Break per se
Nigedo, the 'middle dawn' is a description of the period following the Dragon Break by the Maruhkati Selectives, so it IS a reference to a Dragon Break.
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Isn't it possible that the Dwemer powered up Numidium as some histories suggest, and that this activation caused a warp or break of the Wheel?
Anumidium looks incomplete even in Dagoth Ur's period of rule at Red Mountain, so i find it unlikely that the Dwemer had completed it sufficiently to unleash its powers.
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[KickSelf]Oh, of course[/KickSelf] 
Now it all makes complete sense. Amazing what happens when you overlook one tiny reference, like the bit in "Where were you ..." 
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Alastor: great stuff! Where does it come from? I wasn't familiar with a Book of Hours in the game.
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Hey Nigedo, we all make mistakes, even if it is in the first paragraph of the Dragon Broke book 
Allie, there is no Book of Hours in the game - the reference comes from Vehk from this thread on the Dragon Break:
The Dragon Break
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Although that puts Vehk's entire diatribe into context, I still stick to my other points about Alastor's post.
And I would love to hear your thoughts about the "mingling of magic" comment. 
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The solar and lunar spheres i took to relate to the Light and the Darkness, in other words Anu and Padomay.
Could it be an interpretation of the intrusion into Time of its polar opposite, Stasis?
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Allerleirauh,
Vehk's 'Book of Hours' fragment is found on page 4 of the Thread 'Dragon Broke' by Xan. I would make a direct link but I don't know how. The poster is of course Vehk.
Nigedo,
Ah, quite right on your opinions. I am still at odds about this theory however and it is quite new even for me. There are still many un-answered questions lying about that I am sure cannot be answered. My remark about the Dwemer worshipping the Wayward Children is really just a way for me to question all sides of a theory, so I in no way believe any of it is true, but so long as there is possibility, I cannot ignore it. Besides I do not think the Wayward Children would like the Dwemer as Neighbors unless they both had something to gain from it. Such as another Dragon Break.
phil_t,
You have the right idea, and I noticed that you had remarked that Anumidium was not completed. This is true, and lends credulity to my speculation. But to be honest the whole time I had thought of this Anumidium never crossed my mind for a second. How odd.
Further down the Rabbit hole:
"Masser and Secunda therefore are the personifications of the dichotomy-- the "Cloven Duality," according to Artaeum-- that Lorkhan legends often rail against: ideas of the anima/animus, good/evil, being/nothingness, the poetry of the body, throat, and moan/silence-as-the-abortive, and so on -- set in the night sky as Lorkhan's constant reminder to his mortal issue of their duty.
Followers of this theory hold that all other "Heart Stories" are mythical degradations of the true origin of the moons (and it needn't be said that they observe the "hollow crescent theory" as well)."
AG: Is that you Mnemoli?
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I believe that hollow crescent theory falls under the belief that Masser and Secunda are consumed during their lunar cycle and spat out again by an entity such as the serpent.
Note: Not much unlike some beliefs that were here on Earth about that...
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I wish I had a little alarm that went off everytime someone like Vehk snuck in here and posted...
Apologies for being obvious, but the Star Orphans are comets. A lot of primitive people regarded comets as omens.
Hey, he mentioned Void Rangers! Yay! Now I am officially a member of a "Trickster Cult."
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Very interesting. Nice work!
I would love to hear more from Vehk or even Divayth.
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adamant_2001,
Can you tell us some more about this, please? Where did you get this interpretation from?
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Alastor, there is a link from my post three above your own
Adamant, i too would be very interested to here your thoughts on the hollow crescent theory, as i can find no reference in the lore except for in 'The Lunar Lorkhan'
Ahhhh, i believe this passage from the Elder Scrolls Cosmology explains the Hollow Crescent Theory, and Adamant's comments:
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What are Masser and Secunda?
Masser and Secunda ('Jone' and 'Jode' in the Ehlnofex), the moons of Nirn, are the attendant spirits of the mortal plane. They are like the mortal plane in that they are temporal and subject to the bounds of mortality; in fact of this, the moons are dead and died long ago. The moons used to be pure white and featureless, but today their 'skin' is decaying and withering away. Their planes are likewise dying. Mortals perceive this as the moons being spheres with patches of their 'surfaces' completely eaten away; as the moons spin, they seem to become slivers or ragged crescents. These are not caused by shadows, because you can see stars through the black patches of the lunar spheres.
However, it does not explain their rebirth as full moons again - i wonder how this is perceived. It could certainly be similar to myths of a serpent eating the moons and then regurgitating them as they wax and wane, as Adamant suggested.
And further, from Words of the Clan Mother Ahnassi -
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And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best climbers, for if Masser and Secunda fail, they must climb Khenarthi's breath to set the moons back in their courses."
Does this mean that the Khajiit feel they must take it upon themselves to ensure the rebirth of Masser and Secunda??
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Edited by phil_t (06/26/03 07:16 AM)
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Allerleirauh,
No need to apologize for being obvious, as more often than not the most obvious is the most overlooked. A Void-'Ranger', excuse my ignorance, but I really don't get the joke if it is one! Could you explain?
B,
I too would like to hear further from Vehk and Lord Fyr. Though I'm sure they would not want to elude too much on some subjects, as it would be catastrophic to the excitement and surprise of figuring it out for yourself. But then again you need enough space to walk the path of understanding without stumbling.
Adamant,
Hmm, who is to say that Mnemoli does not have a part in the shaping of the moons? I think you take this too literaly to be honest, it means something else which we do not have the keys to unlock yet. Notice that the Lunar Lorkhan is written by Fal Droon, the same author of the in-famous 'Dragon Break Re-Examined', which 'appears' to come from the future, so could this other book have the same protaginist? Does Fal Droon even 'exist'?
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OMG. I can't believe how much I overlooked that document, Phil.
This discussion is touching on some incredibly important research.
What's next Alastor? 
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Alastor, a Void Ranger is someone who exploits bugs in the game... in the old bad days of Daggerfall, it was easier to fall through the floor than walk on it, and many people started doing it on purpose as a means of bypassing difficult areas. There used to be a Void Ranger's Guild online, which seems to be defunct these days... I think I'm the Last Living Void Ranger. Void Eaters who are tricksters seems to me like a related reference.
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Ah, yes, before my time I see!
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Adamant,
Hmm, who is to say that Mnemoli does not have a part in the shaping of the moons? I think you take this too literaly to be honest, it means something else which we do not have the keys to unlock yet. Notice that the Lunar Lorkhan is written by Fal Droon, the same author of the in-famous 'Dragon Break Re-Examined', which 'appears' to come from the future, so could this other book have the same protaginist? Does Fal Droon even 'exist'?
Side note: I did not remember the link to Elder Scrolls Cosmology, but yes that was what I was refering to.
I feel that perhaps conclusions are being jumped to much like Fal Droon does in his revisionist history style of writing.
Some questions need to be asked about Mnemoli:
How many times has it passed through the sky?
How many times has Red Mountain errupted, are these erruptions tied to Mnemoli's passage?
The wap in the west has a similarity to a break, but there is no strong evidence that Mnemoli was in the sky at that time. Is the Numidium effect able to recreate a small-scale break without the larger scale interactions?
Finally, was Mnemoli in the sky when the profane tools were used on the heart by the Dwemer? Was a Numidian effect created by the disappearance of the Dwarves and the use of the heart? A 'Warp in the East'?
These might all sound like random ideas, but I do believe they all connect together.
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I agree, these questions need to be answered.
The issues here centre (UK spelling  ) upon cause and effect.
It is my tentative belief, in the face of little evidence, that Menmoli's appearance is one effect of a break in the Sideways Wheel, that is to say the Tower (I feel these days that to talk about the 'Dragon Break' is too imprecise. This is not pedantic, it is because not only Akatosh, and his sphere i.e. Time, is affected by a Tower Break).
I also agree that the eruptions of Red Mountain would seem to be an effect of Mnemoli's passing, but not necessarily.
The main points seems to me to be "What causes each warp or break?" and "What other effects are tied into these events?"
In the case of the great 'Dragon Break' we can lay blame squairly at the feet of the Selectives pirouetting on the Tower's facsimile 'til it shattered.
But Numidium or Lorkhan's Heart, as adamant_2001 points out, are central to all other warp, displacement or break accounts including the dissapearance of the Dwemer - with the exception of Arteum's forward time hop.
I'll stop there for a minute and get my breath.
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No, I can't stop, you've got me all wound up now.
Surely the real basis to understanding the displacement of the Dwemer (because that is what we're talking about) is in comprehending the multifarious 'walking paths' that Vehk describes.
It seems to me that what he is relating to us are methods of transcendance of different kinds, some right, some downright wrong but all linked to an understanding of the relationships described by the Wheel, with Lorkhan's Heart and Person at the centre.
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Nigedo and Adamant,
Yes, I see both your points, but as you know Nigedo, some of my musings must be left for another project, so I think this amount of my ramblings will suffice.
To all others who contributed,
Thank you all for your responses and opinions on this matter. As has been said before these are important questions with a multitude of possible answers. We must bear through and take head to the small amounts of insight given, allow it to congeal, and set forth to discover its meanings within meaning. To this I will stop further inquiry in this particular matter until further insight is gained while meditating within my tower.
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From Myself, earlier in this thread:
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Anumidium looks incomplete even in Dagoth Ur's period of rule at Red Mountain, so i find it unlikely that the Dwemer had completed it sufficiently to unleash its powers.
The reply of Alastor:
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You have the right idea, and I noticed that you had remarked that Anumidium was not completed. This is true, and lends credulity to my speculation. But to be honest the whole time I had thought of this Anumidium never crossed my mind for a second. How odd.
However, i have discovered that i was mistaken in my assertion - the Numidium in Red Mountain when the Nerevarine defeats Dagoth Ur is NOT the same Numidium that was there during the Battle Of Red Mountain (unless, of course, it was being rebuilt again from the same materials as the original)
From 'The Arcturian Heresy':
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Pieces of Numidium trickle in, though. Tiber Septim, always fascinated by the Dwarves, has Zurin Arctus research this grand artifact. In doing so, Arctus stumbles upon some of the stories of the war at Red Mountain. He discovers the reason the Numidium was made and some of it's potential. Most importantly, he learns the Underking's place in the War. But Zurin Arctus was working from incomplete plans. He thinks it is the heart of Lorkhan's body that is needed to power the Numidium.
From 'Dagoth Ur's Plans'
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Phase 1: Secure Red Mountain against Tribunal intruders. Deny Tribunal access to the Heart, weakening the Temple while securing Red Mountain for the creation of Akulakhan. Keep the construction of Second Numidium a secret.
So, it appears that after the Battle of Red Mountain the Numidium was either destroyed or dismantled, and the parts were eventually collected by Tiber Septim for the construction of his Numidium at Rimmen.
The Numidium being built by Dagoth Ur IS a different one, so this begs the question of the role of the original Numidium at the Battle of Red Mountain. Was it complete enough to be activated?
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Edited by phil_t (06/28/03 05:36 AM)
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From the stories, it appears that the first Numidium was not active during the Battle at Red Mountain, no more then Akulakhan was when the incarnate faced Dagoth Ur.
During the armstice between the Tribunal and the Empire Numidium was given to Tiber Septim. The status of Numidium however is unknown, the Tribunal did not give the Emporer its heart, and construction and testing was needed in Rimmen.
I believe that Numidium was nearly finished, enough that someone with little knowledge of the Dwemer (the Empire and Tribunal) could finish it, and the battle at Red Mountain occured at the last possible opportunity to defeat the Dwemer.
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During the armstice between the Tribunal and the Empire Numidium was given to Tiber Septim. The status of Numidium however is unknown, the Tribunal did not give the Emporer its heart, and construction and testing was needed in Rimmen.
Ah yes, i had forgotted that piece of information - i believe that it was not all of Numidium however, as other sources note that the Blades were dispatchesd to recovere pieces of Numidium for Tiber Septim.
Certainly, the Heart of Lorkhan was not handed over, hence the need for the creation of the Mantella.
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Phil,
My understanding is that there are three occurrences of 'Brass God' types;
- Anumidium - activated / not activated ??
- Numidium - activated and used after Daggerfall
- Akulakhan - incomplete
Also, in response to the non-activation of Anumidium at the Battle ORM theory;
'Under mountains and over them the war with the Dwemer was raged, and then came the northern men to help Kagrenac and they brought Ysmir again ...
... Dwemeri high priest Kagrenac then revealed that which he had built in the image of Vivec. It was a walking star, which burnt the armies of the Triune and destroyed the heartland of Veloth, creating the Inner Sea.' (ref. Sermon 36)
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I should just add that Sermon 36 also has this to say, 'Red Mountain exploded as the Hortator went too far inside, seeking the Sharmat.'
This may, of course, support the possibility that Anumidium was activated at Red Mountain with one consequence being an immediate warp, directly or indirectly triggering an eruption.
This warp, as has already been proposed, may be the main reason for differing accounts of the Battle and events surrounding it.
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